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The Mandarin

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,411
Subj: Re: Invincible Iron Man (2016-) #594
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 at 09:46:33 pm EST (Viewed 227 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Invincible Iron Man (2016-) #594
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 at 04:02:26 pm EST (Viewed 249 times)

    In this story it was a dictatorship. That may be a retcon, but if so, well the retcon happened. It's as real now as any other retcon.

So, whenever writers and editors make significant mistakes and fail to research their topic, we assume it's a retcon? I call BS on that. It was poor writing and editing. They couldn't be bothered to stay in continuity because they want to make their character look good.

Further, her actions were foolish. You don't simply overthrow the leader and hope things work out. This was even addressed in Iron Man #64, in the Stand Off series where Iron Man fights Thor in his Thor Buster suit. The side story is Thor deposed of the leaders of the country in question and it allowed Doctor Doom to take over the country to fill in the vacuum left by Thor's actions.

Either way, the actions should have been seen as foolish (which would have been a more interesting story), but, because we can't allow Riri to fail, everything turns out right because .... reasons.

    Captain America threatens Doom. Lot's of characters have threatened Doom. If Stark isn't allowed to threaten Doom, that's a flaw with the book imo. It's part of Stark's historical C-list status that he isn't allowed to rock the boat the way the A-list heroes do. He has to be "realistic", which means he's a jobber even in the way he talks. Screw that. My Stark is the movie one who threatened Loki even when his armor was junk. If comic Stark gets retconned into being that Stark, good. And if Riri gets to be that from day one, good on her as well. Also, such talk is not "hubris" in the context of a comic, it's a combination of courage, righteous fury, and sometimes an attempt to intimidate the villain, and psych oneself up for the coming battle.

First, Cap has done it because he has the Avengers to back him up. Second, Cap is a very experienced warrior. Unlike Riri who has no experience.

Also, we aren't talking about being less powerful. We are talking about Doom, likely, the most dangerous human on the planet. Stark has taken him on before, but has never done it lightly, which is the point.

Let me provide you an example in real life. There is a man named Lavar Ball. He is the father of Lonzo Ball, the point guard for the LA Lakers. Lavar Ball is an annoying braggart. He has claimed that he was better than Micheal Jordan in basketball. Clearly, that is a dumb assertion because Micheal Jordan was the best player ever. That's Riri against Doctor Doom.

    Comics aren't the land of the modest. Comics are the land of the "I'm the best there is!" and "I'm the strongest there is!" and "I am vengeance, I am the night, I AM BATMAN!" To hell with this suffocating idea that Iron Man, or Iron Heart, should be modest. It's not "hubris" in the context of a comic, it's a combination of courage, righteous fury, and sometimes an attempt to intimidate the villain, and psych oneself up for the coming battle.

This I found amusing. If that's the case, why is Tony Stark constantly telling us that other people are "smarter than him." I think at one point he said that Pepper Potts was smarter than him.

We aren't talking about confidence. We are talking about unjustified arrogance. There is no reason to think that Riri is good at anything. Heck, in the ridiculous Secret Empire, we were shown that she's almost unnecessary. AI Tony Stark does all the real work while she just flies around.

It would have been interesting to see her fail and learn. Like, for example, she failed to help Latveria and has to deal with the consequences of her foolish actions. Instead, we are stuck with the same character that was introduced several month ago when she told an MIT professor that she had learned all she needed there (after six months, mind you). That same unjustified arrogance which is really unappealing in a character.

    Fundamentally, it can't be company property, because then the company could long since have declared that Stark is violating his fiduciary responsibility by not mass producing the armor for sale. The company would win the right to do whatever they wanted with the armor fairly casually. Which would make Stark an idiot for inventing an armor that wasn't fully and permanently under his control and the control of his chosen heir in the event of his death. I do not believe that Stark is an idiot, therefore the armor is his private property.

Um, no. Two reasons why you are incorrect. First, the patents are owned by Tony Stark. If you remember, before he became Secretary of Defense, it was mentioned that, at first, he patented the Iron Man suit inventions through Stark Enterprises, but then started patenting them himself. The armor designs are still his. The armor itself could be owned by the company. If you remember, Iron Man was the corporate mascot of SE at some points.

Second, we aren't talking about his armor. We're talking about her armor. Presumably, it was designed in a major manufacturing facility and not in her garage. Such facilities are limited to SE and....where else? And, again, if that armor was built in SE property, using SE materials, with SE equipment, there is a very strong argument that it is SE property.

As I said, I am willing to let this point go until we gain further information.

    That would be true in the real world, but the world of comics has made it clear that heroes are best suited to such power, and that non-heroes are evil if they stop them. This is a trope of the genre that can not be defended logically. You just have to swallow this trope whole or stop reading comic books.

No, I don't have to accept it when the story doesn't make sense. Your response is, essentially, I have to accept poor writing because ... reasons.

Further, this was the entire point of Civil War, which Tony won. The idea that you can't have inexperienced fools flying around trying to do "good."

I know they're writing Riri such that everything she does comes out right, but that was never the Marvel way before because it leads to poor writing and disinterested fans.

    Fraction's book was nothing like the movie. Fraction's book was essentially an extension of Denny O'Neil's run.

You missed my point. The basis for these writers' stories is what they learned in the Iron Man movies. It's pretty clear that they never bothered to research the character or look into his past. They just went with what the movie told them, some of which does not correspond to the comics.

For example, Riri claimed that the Silver Centurion armor was originally designed for Jim Rhodes. Really? When was that ever established? I read the Stane series several times and no where do they ever say that the Silver Centurion Armor was designed for Jim Rhodes. Except in the movie, the "silver armor" became Jim Rhodes armor in Iron Man 2. So, there you go.

    To get back to the subject of humility: if the writer feels the need to write a story about humbling the hero, then the villain plainly needs a more threatening goal. Take "Born Again", for example. Fisk destroys Murdock's life. He destroys his business, his wealth, his reputation. Yet the story isn't about Murdock learning humility. Instead, Murdock, being the hero of the story, is happy that he at least saved the woman he loves. Kingpin, the villain of the story, is the one who is humbled. He's baffled and deeply disturbed that Murdock is completely unphased by losing the things Fisk himself considers absolutely vital.

    Fisk's goal was sufficiently threatening that the story didn't have to be about humbling Murdock. Meanwhile so many Stark stories are dreary slogs about him being humbled. I don't want him to be humbled. I want villains to try to humble him, and for them to fail.

Again, you misinterpret my point. I'm not talking about "humbling" a person. My point is that you never see Riri ever learn from anyone. She's arrogant to a fault. She back talks people who have years of experience that she could actually learn from. But, instead, she's written like she doesn't need to learn anything from anyone because everything she does works out.

She's essentially a Mary Sue: Everyone loves her, she rarely (if ever) fails, she's always right, and everything she does works out. This is the reason I don't like Batman. Not that everyone loves him, but everything he does works. Every time.

This is poor writing and a poor character.


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