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Post By
Beowulf

In Reply To
TJ Burns

Subj: Re: The 13 [SPOILERS]
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 05:50:44 am EST (Viewed 1 times)
Reply Subj: Re: The 13 [SPOILERS]
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 07:46:06 pm EST

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> > My guess is that the immortals don't include those who reincarnate automatically, or have immortality through cloning, or a device. Rather, it only includes those who are immortal and unkillable through a property that they themselves have granted to them intrensically. This eliminates beings like Hawkman, Swamp Thing, the Green Lantern Adam, Ras Al Ghul (whose Lazarus-inspired immortality doesn't count since it requires continues use of the Pit), and a few others. For purposes of winnowing the list further, I'm also going to cut out mystical beings like Uncle Sam, who are not human.
> >
>
> Problem is that there much more than 13 immortals running around.

Not so much, apparently... we seem to be having genuine trouble thinking of 13 that aren't either cases of rebirth or "from spell or totem".

> Problem is, aside from being an android and thus not really human before his transformation, the Red Tornado is also an elemental same as Swamp Thing, so he should be excluded.

Ah, but apparently Reddy's always in the same body, which Swampy isn't, which makes the rules fit.

> > Vandal Savage (almost certainly)
>
> Has to constantly repair his body, by using transplants from his decendants. Doesn't come across as that immortal.

Honestly, Savage's rules seem to change with the tides. That whole idea was a mid-90s add-on, and Savage may be free from it after eating his clone in JSA Classified anyway, so...

> > Resurrection Man (whose own series named him as taking the Immortal Man's place, which goes well with the concept that Meltzer is showing us.)
> >
>
> Makes kinda sense.
>
>
> > Deathstroke, who is immortal from a US Government created serum.
> >
>
> Actually it was Chesire boosting the effects of his healfactor, which made him immortal.

Something I'm prone to forget. \:\)

> > The Ravager, who, according to Johns, has been treated with the same serum.
> >
>
> Even if that is true(the original serum was stated to be destroyed/lost), she didn't get an enhancement like her Daddy. Or was she given a bloodtransfusion as well?

It all happened off panel, so who knows? I'd actually remove her from my final list, since I'd forgot that her eye didn't regrow and it wasn't cut off until after her serum exposure.

> > Damien Darkh, who was also exposed to the same serum via blood transfusion.
> >
>
> But Deathstroke's wife Addie got the same deal and still died.
> The question remains, if that is the same kind of immortality.

Ahh, but Addie WANTED to die and it wasn't until after she did that Damien got his immortality. That fits with Meltzer's design.

> > Metamorpho (who can't die without Ra specifically removing his power, just like with Element Girl. It's generally immortal by the same idea that Ivo is, so...)
> >
>
> Element Girl died and so did another metamorph. Death said, that she and Rex had witnessed his destruction, which goes against them being truly immortal.

The issue itself said that the only way to kill them is to remove their power by Ra. That rejection kind of fits with the theme Meltzer's sticking with. That said, the method came from the Orb of Ra, so it might not work technically for Meltzer's idea since that'd probably count as a "totem".

> > General Immortus, who finally found immortality via serum in his last bout with the Doom Patrol.
> >
> > I suspect the Phantom Stranger's knowledge of the 13 may have been intended as a clue that he's a member.
> >
>
> Except he is a mystic being. Hinted to be a fallen angel.

Or a man on a mission from God. Or the DC equivalent of Galactus. All I'm saying is with him, we've got options. \:\) Personally, I HATE the idea of tying the Stranger into anything like this, or confirming his orgin in any way, so he was honestly just a last minute addtion to make 13 for me... and I'm terrified that's exactly what Meltzer WAS hinting at, which is a really bad idea.

Baron Winters is another fairly good option, but it's been implied his house is keeping him alive, so that's a totem. Pariah would be a good choice if he hadn't died in IC. I wonder if Hank Henshaw's one... or Doomsday.

> Maybe we should be less restrict and do include mystic beings.

Maybe, but other than the Stranger, who at least believes he can die, and Uncle Sam, who we know can be destroyed if America is, who have I ignored? They can't be immortal via spell or device by the issue's criteria, so who's left?


TJB

>
> > > My guess is that the immortals don't include those who reincarnate automatically, or have immortality through cloning, or a device. Rather, it only includes those who are immortal and unkillable through a property that they themselves have granted to them intrensically. This eliminates beings like Hawkman, Swamp Thing, the Green Lantern Adam, Ras Al Ghul (whose Lazarus-inspired immortality doesn't count since it requires continues use of the Pit), and a few others. For purposes of winnowing the list further, I'm also going to cut out mystical beings like Uncle Sam, who are not human.
> > >
> >
> > Problem is that there much more than 13 immortals running around.
>
> Not so much, apparently... we seem to be having genuine trouble thinking of 13 that aren't either cases of rebirth or "from spell or totem".
>
> > Problem is, aside from being an android and thus not really human before his transformation, the Red Tornado is also an elemental same as Swamp Thing, so he should be excluded.
>
> Ah, but apparently Reddy's always in the same body, which Swampy isn't, which makes the rules fit.
>

That isn't his original body anymore. But a shell recreated by Firestorm and destroyed again during IC and 52. But okay, he doesn't switch his shell as otften as Swampy. Still as air-elemental, he should be excluded. Same as Solomon Grundy, who is also a failed elemental.

> > > Vandal Savage (almost certainly)
> >
> > Has to constantly repair his body, by using transplants from his decendants. Doesn't come across as that immortal.
>
> Honestly, Savage's rules seem to change with the tides. That whole idea was a mid-90s add-on, and Savage may be free from it after eating his clone in JSA Classified anyway, so...
>
> > > Resurrection Man (whose own series named him as taking the Immortal Man's place, which goes well with the concept that Meltzer is showing us.)
> > >
> >
> > Makes kinda sense.
> >
> >
> > > Deathstroke, who is immortal from a US Government created serum.
> > >
> >
> > Actually it was Chesire boosting the effects of his healfactor, which made him immortal.
>
> Something I'm prone to forget. \:\)
>
> > > The Ravager, who, according to Johns, has been treated with the same serum.
> > >
> >
> > Even if that is true(the original serum was stated to be destroyed/lost), she didn't get an enhancement like her Daddy. Or was she given a bloodtransfusion as well?
>
> It all happened off panel, so who knows? I'd actually remove her from my final list, since I'd forgot that her eye didn't regrow and it wasn't cut off until after her serum exposure.
>
> > > Damien Darkh, who was also exposed to the same serum via blood transfusion.
> > >
> >
> > But Deathstroke's wife Addie got the same deal and still died.
> > The question remains, if that is the same kind of immortality.
>
> Ahh, but Addie WANTED to die and it wasn't until after she did that Damien got his immortality. That fits with Meltzer's design.
>
> > > Metamorpho (who can't die without Ra specifically removing his power, just like with Element Girl. It's generally immortal by the same idea that Ivo is, so...)
> > >
> >
> > Element Girl died and so did another metamorph. Death said, that she and Rex had witnessed his destruction, which goes against them being truly immortal.
>
> The issue itself said that the only way to kill them is to remove their power by Ra. That rejection kind of fits with the theme Meltzer's sticking with. That said, the method came from the Orb of Ra, so it might not work technically for Meltzer's idea since that'd probably count as a "totem".
>
> > > General Immortus, who finally found immortality via serum in his last bout with the Doom Patrol.
> > >
> > > I suspect the Phantom Stranger's knowledge of the 13 may have been intended as a clue that he's a member.
> > >
> >
> > Except he is a mystic being. Hinted to be a fallen angel.
>
> Or a man on a mission from God. Or the DC equivalent of Galactus. All I'm saying is with him, we've got options. \:\) Personally, I HATE the idea of tying the Stranger into anything like this, or confirming his orgin in any way, so he was honestly just a last minute addtion to make 13 for me... and I'm terrified that's exactly what Meltzer WAS hinting at, which is a really bad idea.
>
> Baron Winters is another fairly good option, but it's been implied his house is keeping him alive, so that's a totem. Pariah would be a good choice if he hadn't died in IC. I wonder if Hank Henshaw's one... or Doomsday.
>
> > Maybe we should be less restrict and do include mystic beings.
>
> Maybe, but other than the Stranger, who at least believes he can die, and Uncle Sam, who we know can be destroyed if America is, who have I ignored? They can't be immortal via spell or device by the issue's criteria, so who's left?
>
>
> TJB

Madame Xanadu. Was her immortality ever explained? Don't think so.