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Post By
Zazu

In Reply To
Da' Spyda'

Subj: Re: Dr. Mid-nite's recent JSA Classified (spoilerish)
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 10:36:23 pm EDT
Reply Subj: Re: Dr. Mid-nite's recent JSA Classified (spoilerish)
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 01:24:40 pm EDT

Previous Post

> > Ah, but we are not discussing your belief systems and the difference amongst your friends. We are discussing comic book characters and their characterization and their relationships with their environment (the DC Multiverse) and those characters around them.
>
> No, but my experiences can help explain (at least one way) how people with different beliefs co-exist peacefully. Would you rather have theological discussions every other issue? Who knows? Maybe they do discuss these things off panel. We certainly don't see everything that goes on in their lives.

But your experiences shouldn't have to explain story situations or characterization. That is the job of the writer. If a reader has to fill-in the blanks with his experiences and beliefs, then the writer has failed to do his job. I have never said that every other issue has to be a theological discussion. Maybe those conversations do happen off panel, but that does help the reader, does it?

> >
> > For the story to work, the creative teams (not just those of JSA Classified, but other JSA appearances as well)have to establish what do Dr. Mid-nite and Mr. Terrific really think of the supernatural things around them.
>
> I think this story helps to establish what you are talking about. It's a piece of the puzzle, at the very least.

I would concede that this would be a possibility if it was better written.
> >
> > An apparent contradiction in attitude by these characters should not be resolved by the readers' inferring beliefs that were not clearly established by previous appearances. From my meager memory, I do not recall Mid-nite and Terrific conversing about there doubts of the Spectre's, Wonder Woman's, et. etc. origins, backgrounds, etc. OR, while encountering Mordru or the Gentlemen Ghost or Dr. Fate have them debate that obviously it wasn't magic, but yadda yadda yadda.
>
> No, I can't say that I recall Terrific going up to Dr. Fate and confronting him about whether he's really using magic, alien powers or advanced super-science. So what? I think that would distract from the stories we've been reading. Do you honestly want them to be in a battle with Extant or Black Adam and have Terrific ask Dr. Fate "No, really. How do you really do that?"

Apparently you don't know when I am using absurd humor in making a point. This whole Mid-nite story hinges on supernatural vs. natural, and what our hero believes in AND what he has experienced as a member of the JSA.

> Oh, and Midnite and Terrific did express disbelief (saying he was an illusionist) when the Gentleman Ghost fought them at the end of the last series, and they tried to use science to explain his existence. Does that help you?

yeah, it does. So, it's okay for them to make that point in that story so you can bring it up for your defense. But, I can demand that could have done similar for this story? Hey, they even proved your point without making it a theological discussion every issue. Will wonders never cease? I can't remember, in that story did bring up whether they thought the Spectre was an illusionist too?
> >
> > IF that had been done, then I would concede that the JSA Classified story would have held up better.
> >
> > My mentioning of Mid-nite's and Terrific's different belief systems was only to point out that they came to the same conclusions in spite of their apparent differences.
>
> So, people with different belief systems can't agree that vampires don't exist? Do Catholics believe in vampires while Atheists don't? They are both still scientists. I'm sure they share many common ideas. This just happened to be one of them.

This is a Dr. Mid-nite story. Emphasis on "story".This wasn't a team-up story where Mr. Terrific joins him in the battle. He's there as a cameo and contrast situation. To offer as a sounding board for Dr. Mid-nite, but also a counter-point for the reader. It should be used as a technique to make the main character shine. By having both characters say "Oh, it's all a rational explanation even though we are surrounded by unexplainable people and situations" weakens the story, especially when the explanation is correct in this situation.
Let me see if I can make this clear. Imagine it is an old-time murder mystery. The police inspector talks with the ameuter armchair detective over the dead body. And the inspectory says "I think the butler did it." The armchair detective says, "I tend to believe you are right." Then you end the books with butler admitting he had done that dastardly deed. It's a dull story.
>
> > I DID NOT say anything about trying to convert one's belief into another's. Where you got that idea I'll never know.
> >
> By saying things like "you never seen them talking to Wonder Woman, Dr. Fate, or whoever about their abilities and origins and say, 'Yeaah. Suuure, you are.'" implies vocalizing a disbelief of the others' origins. Just by expressing that disbelief in an other's belief system starts a dialogue so one can try to break down the other's belief. If I said to a friend, "You know that God really doesn't exist, right?" then I'm trying to change their belief system. But I have too much respect to do that to my friends.

Once again, you seem to be taking me literally expecting Mid-nite or Terrific to acutally confront them. Again, absurd humor to make a point. Just as you can have a scene where Terrific and Mid-nite debate whether the Gentlemen Ghost is an illusionist or not. You can a similar scene with just the two of them discussing their thoughts and opinions on their teammates. It doesn't have to be a deep, issue-long theological discussion. A panel here, a line there can convey a lot. The problem with this story is they don't set a solid foundation for what are parameters on Mid-nite's beliefs and why.
I am beginning to believe you have a problem with religion. So,it pushes your buttons when you see something mentioned about atheism, and you feel as if you have to join the fray. You apparently have no problem with inferring things whether reading a comic book or by what I mean in a post.
If you want to infer, go ahead. You want to like this story? Go ahead. You want this to be the best damn Dr. Mid-nite story, go ahead. But if your happiness depends on my having to agree with you. You are not going to be happy.


> > > Ah, but we are not discussing your belief systems and the difference amongst your friends. We are discussing comic book characters and their characterization and their relationships with their environment (the DC Multiverse) and those characters around them.
> >
> > No, but my experiences can help explain (at least one way) how people with different beliefs co-exist peacefully. Would you rather have theological discussions every other issue? Who knows? Maybe they do discuss these things off panel. We certainly don't see everything that goes on in their lives.
>
> But your experiences shouldn't have to explain story situations or characterization. That is the job of the writer. If a reader has to fill-in the blanks with his experiences and beliefs, then the writer has failed to do his job. I have never said that every other issue has to be a theological discussion. Maybe those conversations do happen off panel, but that does help the reader, does it?
>
> > >
> > > For the story to work, the creative teams (not just those of JSA Classified, but other JSA appearances as well)have to establish what do Dr. Mid-nite and Mr. Terrific really think of the supernatural things around them.
> >
> > I think this story helps to establish what you are talking about. It's a piece of the puzzle, at the very least.
>
> I would concede that this would be a possibility if it was better written.
> > >
> > > An apparent contradiction in attitude by these characters should not be resolved by the readers' inferring beliefs that were not clearly established by previous appearances. From my meager memory, I do not recall Mid-nite and Terrific conversing about there doubts of the Spectre's, Wonder Woman's, et. etc. origins, backgrounds, etc. OR, while encountering Mordru or the Gentlemen Ghost or Dr. Fate have them debate that obviously it wasn't magic, but yadda yadda yadda.
> >
> > No, I can't say that I recall Terrific going up to Dr. Fate and confronting him about whether he's really using magic, alien powers or advanced super-science. So what? I think that would distract from the stories we've been reading. Do you honestly want them to be in a battle with Extant or Black Adam and have Terrific ask Dr. Fate "No, really. How do you really do that?"
>
> Apparently you don't know when I am using absurd humor in making a point. This whole Mid-nite story hinges on supernatural vs. natural, and what our hero believes in AND what he has experienced as a member of the JSA.
>
> > Oh, and Midnite and Terrific did express disbelief (saying he was an illusionist) when the Gentleman Ghost fought them at the end of the last series, and they tried to use science to explain his existence. Does that help you?
>
> yeah, it does. So, it's okay for them to make that point in that story so you can bring it up for your defense. But, I can demand that could have done similar for this story? Hey, they even proved your point without making it a theological discussion every issue. Will wonders never cease? I can't remember, in that story did bring up whether they thought the Spectre was an illusionist too?
> > >
> > > IF that had been done, then I would concede that the JSA Classified story would have held up better.
> > >
> > > My mentioning of Mid-nite's and Terrific's different belief systems was only to point out that they came to the same conclusions in spite of their apparent differences.
> >
> > So, people with different belief systems can't agree that vampires don't exist? Do Catholics believe in vampires while Atheists don't? They are both still scientists. I'm sure they share many common ideas. This just happened to be one of them.
>
> This is a Dr. Mid-nite story. Emphasis on "story".This wasn't a team-up story where Mr. Terrific joins him in the battle. He's there as a cameo and contrast situation. To offer as a sounding board for Dr. Mid-nite, but also a counter-point for the reader. It should be used as a technique to make the main character shine. By having both characters say "Oh, it's all a rational explanation even though we are surrounded by unexplainable people and situations" weakens the story, especially when the explanation is correct in this situation.
> Let me see if I can make this clear. Imagine it is an old-time murder mystery. The police inspector talks with the ameuter armchair detective over the dead body. And the inspectory says "I think the butler did it." The armchair detective says, "I tend to believe you are right." Then you end the books with butler admitting he had done that dastardly deed. It's a dull story.
> >
> > > I DID NOT say anything about trying to convert one's belief into another's. Where you got that idea I'll never know.
> > >
> > By saying things like "you never seen them talking to Wonder Woman, Dr. Fate, or whoever about their abilities and origins and say, 'Yeaah. Suuure, you are.'" implies vocalizing a disbelief of the others' origins. Just by expressing that disbelief in an other's belief system starts a dialogue so one can try to break down the other's belief. If I said to a friend, "You know that God really doesn't exist, right?" then I'm trying to change their belief system. But I have too much respect to do that to my friends.
>
> Once again, you seem to be taking me literally expecting Mid-nite or Terrific to acutally confront them. Again, absurd humor to make a point. Just as you can have a scene where Terrific and Mid-nite debate whether the Gentlemen Ghost is an illusionist or not. You can a similar scene with just the two of them discussing their thoughts and opinions on their teammates. It doesn't have to be a deep, issue-long theological discussion. A panel here, a line there can convey a lot. The problem with this story is they don't set a solid foundation for what are parameters on Mid-nite's beliefs and why.
> I am beginning to believe you have a problem with religion. So,it pushes your buttons when you see something mentioned about atheism, and you feel as if you have to join the fray. You apparently have no problem with inferring things whether reading a comic book or by what I mean in a post.
> If you want to infer, go ahead. You want to like this story? Go ahead. You want this to be the best damn Dr. Mid-nite story, go ahead. But if your happiness depends on my having to agree with you. You are not going to be happy.
>
I was going to reply to your comments, but luckily I read your whole response first. If you're going to be so closed-minded that you can't even be civil then there's no point in continuing this. I offered some valid points, and a point of view that you evidently hadn't considered and obviously refuse to listen to. Instead, you want to infer that I have a problem with religion (which I don't). Keep standing there with your arms crossed, shaking your head all you want. It's not going to get you very far in this world to be so closed-minded.


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