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Post By
Monako

In Reply To
Ed Love

Subj: What about the Golden Age Wonder Woman factor?
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:43:11 pm EDT
Reply Subj: not so clearly
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:23:29 pm EDT

Previous Post

> > In a sense they didn't because the Earth-2 Superman wasn't really the GA Superman.
>
> You do agree that there was a Golden Age Superman was a member of the JSA and started the comicbook industry (as far as superheroes ar concerned, anyway),right? It that ain't Kal-L, who is it? Such a character existed, such a character was delineated for the record to be the Earth-2 Superman, and so, ipso facto, they are one and the same. DC killed Siegel and Shuster's original Superman. That is utterly unacceptable.They don't have the right. He belongs to the fans, not to corporate monsters.

Yes and no. It was Superman. It's just that until an Earth 2 was revealed it was always the same Superman from 1941, 1951, and 1961 (at least for the first half of that year) that was appearing in comics as far as anybody knew or gave it any thought at all. There weren't two Supermen. When Superboy was created in 1950's, there wasn't any thought of how it contradicted earlier stories or that the earlier stories were one Superman and this was the history of the new Superman. It was just a change/retcon to Superman in general across the board.

> Until the "Flash of 2 Worlds" there wasn't the concept of Earth-2.
>
> And yet,Golden Age coninuity clearly existed before the label "Earth-2" was created by Barry Allen's Flash. The Golden Age continuity still came first, still deserves to be respected perdominantly over upstart retcon junk. We owe the original creators that much, at least. Without them, a lot of artists and writers today might be flipping burgers for a living.

Golden-age continuity existed. Yes. It came first. Yes. BUT, Earth-2 and the Earth-2 Superman are retcons. If the Earth-2 Superman was truly meant to be the GA Superman, then the character actually would be as Superman was when Earth-2 was created in 1961 and all the changes in place by that point and all adventures from that point on would have been the Earth-1 Superman.

> The Superman you were reading about at that particular time was for all intents and purposes, the same Superman from the 40's.
>
> But that would mean Kal-El was a member of the JSA in the 40's before he was a JLAer in the late 50's/early 60's, and clearly that's not the case. They were two different Supermen from two different Kryptons (and two dfferent universes, just like Supergirl and Power Girl).

Until the 60's, modern continuity didn't exist. Superman wasn't a member of both teams in as much by the time the JLA came about, the JSA just no longer existed as part of the comics continuity as it was then. The fact that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were part of the JSA wasn't a concern to be factored in. The closest it came to being addressed was in the Flash's origin in SHOWCASE showing that Jay Garrick was a character from an OLD comic book. There was and always was only one Superman, he had just changed and evolved over time. At no point did they stop publishing the GA Superman and decide to start publishing the Earth 1 Superman. There's no disconnect like there is with the Flash, Green Lantern and Hawkman. They did the opposite. They took the then current Superman and took a bunch of detritus and re-created a GA Superman as they retroactively established GA continuity as having happened in regards to the Silver-Age continuity. Even then it's a false continuity. Some things like the Daily Star-Daily Planet, red-haired Luthor-bald Luthor had changed early on, long before the Silver-Age but now had never happened to the Earth-2 Superman. Even the Superboy changes were in the 50's, still part of the GA of comics according to some delineations.

Think of it as growing up. One day you're 5 years old. As you get older, somethings that are important or a big deal you hold on to. Others you don't and many you just forget about as time goes by. And some like skin cells are shed without a conscious thought or notice. You reach 25 and you are in many ways a very different person, down to the cellular level. But, you are still the same person and have many of the same thoughts and personality that was in place when you are 5. The GA Superman is you at 5 and the 1960 Superman at 25. Different but the same.

Then suddenly someone clones you, but it's you a many years younger and through VR magic manages to recreate many of the same life experiences up to that age. Though the clone resembles you from all those years ago and now has some of the same life experiences, it's still not really you at age 5. That's the Earth-2 Superman. He's created to fill a hole that existed. It would have been just as easy for DC to decide back when they established Earth2 that there was not really a Superman or Batman with the JSA since they were such a small part of the JSA in reality. Wonder Woman would have been a little more problematic.

> Just as the Phantom and Dick Tracy in the newspapers today are more or less the same men that were in the papers in the 30's and 40's.
>
> The Phantom has descendants who take up the Phantom mantle. Not the same thing.

Yes it is. Because, while the Phantom has in place a fix for such things, it was not used to do so. Other than flashbacks to other eras, the Phantom of the 30's and 40's continued uninterrupted until present day. While in the comic books there have occassionally been a story trying to establish that it was a different Phantom in WWII, in his primary medium, it has always been the same guy. The Phantom in the strips today is the same man that Falk introduced to the world decades ago. There has never been a transition from one Phantom to the next in the present day continuity of the strips. He never aged, died and passed along the mantle to another guy. Same for Flash Gordon and Mandrake. To establish that he did so now would make perfectly logical and good sense, but it would be a retcon patch.

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman


> > > In a sense they didn't because the Earth-2 Superman wasn't really the GA Superman.
> >
> > You do agree that there was a Golden Age Superman was a member of the JSA and started the comicbook industry (as far as superheroes ar concerned, anyway),right? It that ain't Kal-L, who is it? Such a character existed, such a character was delineated for the record to be the Earth-2 Superman, and so, ipso facto, they are one and the same. DC killed Siegel and Shuster's original Superman. That is utterly unacceptable.They don't have the right. He belongs to the fans, not to corporate monsters.
>
> Yes and no. It was Superman. It's just that until an Earth 2 was revealed

I would say "labelled", and not just out of pedantic semantics.




it was always the same Superman from 1941, 1951, and 1961 (at least for the first half of that year) that was appearing in comics as far as anybody knew or gave it any thought at all.


Wait, Mort had many parallel world one-shot Supermen and Superboys in those Silver Age stories before the Earth-2 Superman made his Silver Age debut in the JLA. Hence, we've had multiple Supermen for quite some time (prior even to Kal-L being identified as the Earth-2 Superman, as a cursory examination of old Mort Superman/Superboy tales will readily confirm). All I'm saying is that Kal-L is significant because, unlike those other countless multiple earth Supermen and Superboys, Kal-L has an important role in DC history and attempts to diminish this seem like making excuses to kill him disrespectfully (which DC undeniably did, losing even more old fans forever).




There weren't two Supermen.

Actually, there were more if one starts adding them all up, but only two are really majorly historical/noteworthy landmark versions of Superman.




When Superboy was created in 1950's, there wasn't any thought of how it contradicted earlier stories or that the earlier stories were one Superman and this was the history of the new Superman.


Was Subbie Namor or a lookalike sidekick?


It was just a change/retcon to Superman in general across the board.

But, eventually, we got a plausible explanantion. Back in the day, only EC had letter's pages. It was Marvel that ushered in continuity (even though, ironically, Stan Lee got a lot of Golden Age continuity stunningly wrong the few times he referenced it).


>
> > Until the "Flash of 2 Worlds" there wasn't the concept of Earth-2.


It was there, always was, just not under that name until Barry "discovered" it.


> >
> > And yet,Golden Age coninuity clearly existed before the label "Earth-2" was created by Barry Allen's Flash. The Golden Age continuity still came first, still deserves to be respected perdominantly over upstart retcon junk. We owe the original creators that much, at least. Without them, a lot of artists and writers today might be flipping burgers for a living.
>
> Golden-age continuity existed. Yes. It came first. Yes. BUT, Earth-2 and the Earth-2 Superman are retcons.

Even though the Golden Age Superman literally and technically came first? That seems like a lawyer's loophole to ignore the fact that the legacy of the Golden Age Superman has been disrespected, obliterated, and is being swept under the rug.Kal-L deserves a place of honor in the DC pantheon, not scorn and obblivion. "He's just a retcon" marginalizes what he stands for, wouldn't you concur?








If the Earth-2 Superman was truly meant to be the GA Superman, then the character actually would be as Superman was when Earth-2 was created in 1961 and all the changes in place by that point and all adventures from that point on would have been the Earth-1 Superman.

That would have been redundant and uncreative. Restoring lost elements of the Superman mythos made Kal-L a nostalgic icon to be treasured.


>
> > The Superman you were reading about at that particular time was for all intents and purposes, the same Superman from the 40's.
> >
> > But that would mean Kal-El was a member of the JSA in the 40's before he was a JLAer in the late 50's/early 60's, and clearly that's not the case. They were two different Supermen from two different Kryptons (and two dfferent universes, just like Supergirl and Power Girl).
>
> Until the 60's, modern continuity didn't exist. Superman wasn't a member of both teams in as much by the time the JLA came about, the JSA just no longer existed as part of the comics continuity as it was then. The fact that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were part of the JSA wasn't a concern to be factored in. The closest it came to being addressed was in the Flash's origin in SHOWCASE showing that Jay Garrick was a character from an OLD comic book. There was and always was only one Superman,

Mort had parallel earth Supermen and Superboys pop regularly in the early 60's.


he had just changed and evolved over time. At no point did they stop publishing the GA Superman and decide to start publishing the Earth 1 Superman. There's no disconnect like there is with the Flash, Green Lantern and Hawkman. They did the opposite. They took the then current Superman and took a bunch of detritus and re-created a GA Superman as they retroactively established GA continuity as having happened in regards to the Silver-Age continuity. Even then it's a false continuity. Some things like the Daily Star-Daily Planet, red-haired Luthor-bald Luthor had changed early on, long before the Silver-Age but now had never happened to the Earth-2 Superman. Even the Superboy changes were in the 50's, still part of the GA of comics according to some delineations.
>
> Think of it as growing up. One day you're 5 years old. As you get older, somethings that are important or a big deal you hold on to. Others you don't and many you just forget about as time goes by. And some like skin cells are shed without a conscious thought or notice. You reach 25 and you are in many ways a very different person, down to the cellular level. But, you are still the same person and have many of the same thoughts and personality that was in place when you are 5. The GA Superman is you at 5 and the 1960 Superman at 25. Different but the same.
>
> Then suddenly someone clones you, but it's you a many years younger and through VR magic manages to recreate many of the same life experiences up to that age. Though the clone resembles you from all those years ago and now has some of the same life experiences, it's still not really you at age 5. That's the Earth-2 Superman. He's created to fill a hole that existed. It would have been just as easy for DC to decide back when they established Earth2 that there was not really a Superman or Batman with the JSA since they were such a small part of the JSA in reality. Wonder Woman would have been a little more problematic.
>
> > Just as the Phantom and Dick Tracy in the newspapers today are more or less the same men that were in the papers in the 30's and 40's.
> >
> > The Phantom has descendants who take up the Phantom mantle. Not the same thing.
>
> Yes it is. Because, while the Phantom has in place a fix for such things, it was not used to do so. Other than flashbacks to other eras, the Phantom of the 30's and 40's continued uninterrupted until present day. While in the comic books there have occassionally been a story trying to establish that it was a different Phantom in WWII, in his primary medium, it has always been the same guy. The Phantom in the strips today is the same man that Falk introduced to the world decades ago. There has never been a transition from one Phantom to the next in the present day continuity of the strips. He never aged, died and passed along the mantle to another guy. Same for Flash Gordon and Mandrake. To establish that he did so now would make perfectly logical and good sense, but it would be a retcon patch.
>
> Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman
>


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