Dave Galanter
December 1st 1969 - December 12th 2020
He was loved.

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Iron Man Unit 007

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,568
In Reply To
America's Captain 

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139
Subj: Re: Android Torch, the Vision and Immortus
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 at 10:16:56 am EST (Viewed 232 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Android Torch, the Vision and Immortus
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 at 06:43:55 am EST (Viewed 257 times)

Previous Post

    Avengers West Coast #42 Byrne has taken over the book and thus starts Vision Quest.

    Vision has gone missing and the trail leads them to a govt. facility where the Vision is in pieces, his synthetic skin floating in a tube and his memory banks including all back ups at Avengers HQ are WIPED.

    They get explanations and out is brought an older but still alive Horton who states the Vision IS NOT THE TORCH.

    Teh Scarlet Witch is horrified to say the least. Pym rebuilds the Vision but his skin is now chalk white (think Data from TNG) and though Pym recosntructed the data of Vision's programming, Wonder Man would not let himself be copied again because he loves Wanda.

Copied again. When was he copied the first time and why? Which story, which writer, what probably flimsy explanation?

    Wanda under goes more trauma as she is possessed by an alien parasite then later becomes a bride of Set in Atlantis Attacks.

    Vision Quest culminates in Avengers West Coast 50 where the clues lead them to the secret grave of the Torch that the Thinker created way back in Submariner 14 (1966) to trap and enslave TORO. Pym is speaking to the mayor to get permission to exhume the grave even though there is no memory or record of the grave.

    The Scarlet Witch at this point is now NOT a model of mental health and is becoming as arrogant as her father magneto and imperiously waves her hand and her hex powers flip the switch as it were and The Torch bursts out his grave. Wonder Man cashes him, convinces him to return and he and the Vision meet each other.

    Pym later concludes Ultron built Vision from spare parts of the Torch.

    Avengers Forever #8 gives a full explanation of how Immortus replicates the Torch and why....to ensure Wanda never has kids of her own due to the power they'd wield. Vision and the Torch were merely pawns to Immortus, nothing more. We also learn the history of the Space Phantom and all the times the Phantom(s) attacked the Avengers and how a Phantom was disguised as Horton to sow the seeds of confusion about Vision not being the Torch.

    Ultron took the Torch that was in the lab after FF annual 4, Immortus then placed the other torch in that lab and made sure the Thinker would find it and come up with the plan to ensare Toro, and bury the Torch.

The convolutions are breathtakingly relentless.

    Reed Richards could easily have studied and repaired the Torch just as the Thinker did. Pym also knows the Vision and Torch's construction rather well.

So Reed leaving the Torch with the Thinker was sheer insanity, as I originally thought.

    For full data on Torch and his apparent present status:


    As to Wonder Man, he's become a character in his own right and he is the original Simon Williams, while Vision was a copy at best.

That sentence is why I hate the Simon Williams permutation to the story. Without it, the Vision could one day have had his gem removed and returned to his Torch personality, while retaining his memories and feelings up to that point. He would have been the Torch (mentally and emotionally) and he also would have been in love with Wanda and a dedicated Avenger while having memories of being friends with Captain America both as an Invader and as an Avenger. This would have brought closure to his incessant search for meaning and identity while opening up a new door for very different future stories of Vision and Wanda, the Avengers in general, and even the relationship with Captain America.

Of course this would be complicated and angst-inducing due to the Immortus story and the existence of a second Torch. The second Torch would of course look a lot more like the Torch and thus would have a psychological leg up over the Vision, who would feel insecure because he can't fit in as easily with humans as the second Torch can. This would be a very Marvel-type soap opera story so I guess I could put up with it.

But Simon Williams? He has no role in any of this that I've seen so far. He seems to have been shoehorned in. He must have been somebody's pet character. Maybe because of his name. "Simply delicious! DC must hate how we have Wonder Man in our books! Oh, sweet triumph! How can we increase his visibility and centrality in the stories? I want to send the DC guys a Christmas card with Wonder Man on it! Oh I'm crying! I can't breathe I'm laughing so hard!"

He was copied the first time by Hank as he was dying at the end of his debut story. The plan was that in some way Simon might live again some day.

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