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Reverend Meteor

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689
In Reply To
America's Captain 

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139
Subj: Re: Android Torch, the Vision and Immortus
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 at 12:15:19 pm EST (Viewed 198 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Android Torch, the Vision and Immortus
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 at 06:43:55 am EST (Viewed 219 times)

    Copied again. When was he copied the first time and why? Which story, which writer, what probably flimsy explanation?

He meant Simon didn't want to be copied again after Hank and Tony copied him the first time way back in the day.

Simon didn't want to help recreate the Vision's personality after he was disassembled in Byrne's West Coast Avengers run for two reasons.

1. He was in love with Wanda.
2. He didn't feel that it was right that his brain engrams/essence what have you was copied into a robot in the first place. It would be like someone having created a child with your stolen sperm sample. Or what was done with Henrietta Lacks cell line.

While not submitting to be copied for the first reason makes him an opportunistic dick I agree with him for the second reason. Everyone has a right what they choose to share of themselves and he wasn't given the choice the first time around.

    That sentence is why I hate the Simon Williams permutation to the story. Without it, the Vision could one day have had his gem removed and returned to his Torch personality, while retaining his memories and feelings up to that point. He would have been the Torch (mentally and emotionally) and he also would have been in love with Wanda and a dedicated Avenger while having memories of being friends with Captain America both as an Invader and as an Avenger. This would have brought closure to his incessant search for meaning and identity while opening up a new door for very different future stories of Vision and Wanda, the Avengers in general, and even the relationship with Captain America.

yuck to all of that. There was no plan for any of that ever. There was never a Jim and Wanda couple. When Vision was with Wanda he was the Vision. Not Jim. Not Simon. He had his own personality and that was who Wanda fell for.

There was never a plan for Vision to regain those Torch memories and be Jim again. Which is why Byrne's retcon as bad as it is was, was also a bit of a good thing. Jim was his own distinctive character and there was never a plan to erase Vision and make Jim live again. Jim's origin had to be divorced from Vision's so both could live.

    Of course this would be complicated and angst-inducing due to the Immortus story and the existence of a second Torch. The second Torch would of course look a lot more like the Torch and thus would have a psychological leg up over the Vision, who would feel insecure because he can't fit in as easily with humans as the second Torch can. This would be a very Marvel-type soap opera story so I guess I could put up with it.

I have no love for the Immortus was behind everything angle. I accepted the Jim isn't the Vision aspect of it but in every other way I hated it. Wanda and virtually every thing in her life ended up being manipulated for a nonsense story (that Roy had to fix or make worse depending how you look at it) about Wanda being some time nexus being or something.

    But Simon Williams? He has no role in any of this that I've seen so far. He seems to have been shoehorned in. He must have been somebody's pet character. Maybe because of his name. "Simply delicious! DC must hate how we have Wonder Man in our books! Oh, sweet triumph! How can we increase his visibility and centrality in the stories? I want to send the DC guys a Christmas card with Wonder Man on it! Oh I'm crying! I can't breathe I'm laughing so hard!"

The thing is Jim didn't really have anything to do with it. He was the victim of a retcon that effectively absorbed him into the Vision and wiped out his personality.

Simon wasn't part of the original plan. His brainwaves were what they used to give Vision some semblance of a working personality. But then years later they brought Simon back from the dead so they could have Vision and Simon interact. And Englehart built about this love story between Vision and Wanda. And then Byrne came along and hated all of that and made it his mission to destroy the happy couple. And then Busiek came along to tried make sense of the mess Englehart and Byrne had made of Avengers continuity over the years and made it much worse than it was before he got there.

Nothing occurred in a vacuum. Someone was always unhappy with the vision (lowercase) of the writers before them and put their little stink on it. Vision, Simon and Wanda are nearly unusable IMO with all the retcons they've been through.