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The Black Guardian 

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,150
Subj: Re: If Cyclops is a villain, SO IS JEAN GREY!
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 at 10:08:00 am EDT (Viewed 97 times)
Reply Subj: Re: If Cyclops is a villain, SO IS JEAN GREY!
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 at 09:00:32 am EDT (Viewed 102 times)

Previous Post

    1. It seems like apples and oranges to compare Sentinels capturing mutants to "round them up" with Scott protecting his people. T'challa fought to protect his country/city. He even said he would "kill Namor for this". Scott has been drawing a line in the sand metaphorically for quite some time. People kept stepping over it.
    2. I don't see Scott as playing the end justifies the means. That's Wolverine and X-Force...which Wolverine did willingly on Scott's orders. Thus, Cyclops =bad means Wolverine =bad.

There's a big difference: Cyclops is risking the lives of innocents. Wolverine is/was directly attacking the guilty.

I don't see how you could have been paying attention for the past 5 years if you think Cyclops is not justifying the end with his means. Everything he had X-Force do was justifying ends. He even unnecessarily caused the deaths of a few friends because he needs those ends justified.

    3. Cyclops wasn't killing enemies to restart the race. He was in a situation of kill or be killed. That was the point the writers were setting up.

Well, he hasn't been allowed (yet), but he's certainly been trying to kill friend, enemy and innocent alike just to restart his race.

    5. Schism proved both points of view had merit. A good buddy's father changed his birth certificate so he could go fight WWII at age 16! He, like Cyclops, believed that he had the right to make that choice....and shouldn't be told "No, you can't fight".

There is no "both." The key part of the argument is "have to." In Scott's Utopia, anyone who stays is forced to fight as soon as they're old enough to hold a weapon. In Schism, Wolverine was not saying anyone "can't." He was saying no one should be forced to, especially children.

    6. Hope is not Cyclops' daughter, but she is a child left in his care. The point is, Cyclops was responsible for her. To let the Avengers take her, when they wouldn't say what their plan was, was not acceptable. Phoenix would have destroyed the Earth for all they knew. They obviously couldn't stop it on their own. Hope was the only chance. It was okay when Jean got possessed. The Dark Phoenix path could have been averted possibly if Scott had his way...but we will never know now. As for her not wanting it....tough. Remember when your parents made you eat your vegetables? How about this quote: "Sometimes we find our destiny on the road we took to avoid it" Maybe Hope will finally find her destiny in AvX 12.

The Avengers didn't need a plan. Scott proved himself unfit for the role of guardian by his plan. His plan was potentially homicidal. In the real world, when parents or guardians do this, their children are forcibly removed from their care. Never mind what the plan is for the child once removed.

1. How is Cyclops risking the lives of innocents? If you are at war, and I do believe Cyclops believes he is at war, how do you defend yourself...especially on multiple fronts? At some point, you risk becoming General Custer...surrounded by the enemy and your forces (loved ones) are killed off. Slowly but surely, this was what was happening. Wanda's actions put Scott in that scenario. Again, I ask, when in this scenario, what do you do? Lie down and die or fight for your lives?

2. I do not agree with your assessment that Cyclops was trying to kill friend and enemy and innocent alike. He was doing what I stated above.

3. I see your point about shouldn't "have to" fight. But...I don't think Scott forced anyone to fight. I do think his judgment about how best to protect the younger X-Men was suspect. But as we will see in one month, the Original X-Men were children. Not much older than the 5 lights and other young mutants.

4. How was his plan homicidal if Hope ultimately ends up becoming Phoenix? If Hope is so "not ready" or "unwilling", why are the Avengers training her?? Surely they are not planning on letting Hope battle the Phoenix...or are they? Tell me how this current plan of action is any different than what Scott would have done? I don't think you can. You don't know what Scott's plan was...but I would argue his plan was no different than what is happening right now.

Instead of letting Scott handle the situation, the Avengers took away his choices. They were scared and didn't know what to do other than "put Hope in custody". Unless I read it wrong, they had no plan other than to "take Hope" and hope for the best.

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