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Post By
Menshevik

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,026
In Reply To
The Silver Surfer

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Subj: Re: Well see, here's the thing (Is he back already?)
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 at 07:25:09 am PDT (Viewed 105 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Well see, here's the thing.
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 at 05:47:57 am PDT (Viewed 100 times)



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      They wanted to shock the readers (and, in-story, the X-Men) with an unexpected death, and decided that Thunderbird was the most "expendable" character on the team. I consider this a legitimate decision. Characters aren't always killed off for lacking potential, that would be too easy. Some characters are even created to be killed off (notably people like Jor-El, Lara, Thomas and Martha Wayne, Ben, Richard and Mary Parker...), but if they are written well, the readers will still care about them.



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    I'm not arguing he should come back. I am just saying it is ridiculous to assume there is nothing there to write. When someone has been along so little before dying they have nothing but potential.


Well, I never said that there isn't anything left to write. Anyone could write more stories about any character if they so choose.

"Potential" has been used so much by fans with reference to characters that I consider it basically a meaningless term. The more of a blank slate a character is, the sketchier their characterization is, the worse they are written, the more "potential" they seem to have.


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      The answer to your last question is that Professor X goaded him into it, saying that he would be a coward if he refused to join.



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    That is not much of an answer. So, Xavier goaded him... but why would that work? Could someone god you into joining a paramilitary group that at the time already has a history of fighting superhuman terrorists and killer robots?


Whether you like it or not, it was shown working in-story. Given the more recent "Charles Xavier is a manipulative bastard" trend I suppose one could e. g. retcon in that he gave him a bit of a telepathic nudge to make him join the X-Men, but that really would say more about Charles than about John...


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    It is the same idea they used to get Ben Grimm to pilot the ship into space, and it was later retconned that he did it to make sure they were all okay, because that is not a very good reason its own.


Which I honestly don't think was that much of an improvement or even necessary. That Ben cared about his friends (and wanted Sue to love him) was something we already knew.


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    There would have to be a reason why goading would work on him. Did he not like being talked down to by a white man? Was there a moment in Nam he acted as a coward, and wants to make up for it? Is it false bravado because he really realized it was the best way to leave the reservation forever? Know his brother was also a mutant and wanted to set an example, that you have to be tough in the world?


Some of the above was established in-story. That he was a coward in Viet Nam seems unlikely, he came out of his service as a corporal. And joining the X-Men can hardly have been his only ticket out of the reservation. Other stuff obviously would have to be retconned in (at the time his three appearances were written, John Proudstar had no brother).


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      I would guess that if he still was so headstrong as he was in his final appearance after serving as a Marine in Vietnam, then there is little chance of him being more prudent after his revival. If he did change, I suppose it would be a bit of a repeat of what happened with Wonder Man...



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    This is sort of the problem... you are guessing. It is how you would see it, not some writer who resurrected him.


As a fan and reader you're allowed to guess. Sorry, I didn't get that your questions were purely rhethorical.


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      The way I see it, John Proudstar has long been brought back in the shape of his younger brother James (who would not even exist as a character were it not for John's death). When James first appeared, the only notable differences between the two were that James isn't an ex-Marine or a Vietnam veteran, and that he isn't as suicidally headstrong as John. Are these differences so important?



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    I don't care if John Proudstar comes back or not, I just don't like it when people claim characters can't have anything done with them.


See my comment above re. "potential".


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    You claim that there are only two notable differences, but one we have seen a lot of, and one far less. Large parts of his life are a mystery. what a writer could fill in.


Never claimed that couldn't happen. But that would make John Proudstar a different character, much in the same way as James Proudstar's subsequent stories led to him developing a distinct personality of his own and becoming more than a revival of the original Thunderbird. But in the beginning they were pretty much cut from the same cloth, so the difference between the two is more comparable to that between two versions of the same character (Scott and Ultimate Scott, Scott and AoA Scott etc.) than that between real brothers (Scott and Alex Summers).


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    James iodized his brother? Why? I have two older brothers, and I do not idolize either of them.


Did James idolize his brother? That's news to me. All I know is that he wanted to avenge him.


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    You say those are the only differences there are, in reality, they are just the only ones we know. Outside of the short time he was with the X-Men, all we know is what is filtered through James' eyes. Who is to say he saw his brother accurately, and that John was not trying to be the man his brother envisioned him as.


You can always retcon in more, I wanted to focus on the differences we were actually shown so far. But if you want, John can always become half-Skrull or whatever.


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    He might have committed crimes while in the military, and not got caught.



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    Seeing how little the X-Men cared about him, he might rejoin the military, or dive into his native American ancestry in some way we have not seen his brother do.



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    His death could push him into his culture's spiritual side.



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    The possibilities are all but endless. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean nobody else does.


It's not that I don't see it, but the same thing is true about literally every character who as ever appeared in a Marvel comic.


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    But, yeah keep him dead. I have no love for the character, or his brother either for that matter. Whatever you do to them makes no never mind to me.


I've just discovered that his wikipedia article claims that he already has been brought back from the dead. Apparently he was seen as part of the crowd at Dazzler's concert in X-Force vol. 6 #9 (can't confirm, didn't read that issue).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbird_(John_Proudstar)#cite_note-26

Incidentally, he also was brought back, kind of and briefly, during Necrosha and Chaos War, and he of course appeared in various alternate versions, most notably in Exiles.



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